Introduction
I have been following Indi’s Reptiles on Instagram for a while now and found inspiration in her large, naturalistic enclosure for her Colombian red-tailed boa, Ruin. She also features cute videos of her Savannah monitor, Dexter, playing seek and destroy with his toys.
She is very outspoken about her frustrations with hoarding and poor husbandry in the reptile community. So we sat down to have a virtual chat about some concerns as reptile-keeping has become an increasingly popular hobby.
Although we did discuss specific influencers in the reptile community, I have chosen to leave their names out of this interview in an effort to highlight positive influencers.
**This interview was edited for brevity and clarity. Interviewees are consulted for review prior to posting.**
Interview
Indi, let’s start with a little about you. If you don’t mind, share a brief background of your experience.
I originally went to school for Social Work and Art. The idea was to focus on ASL and use that in my career as a Social Worker. However, I have always had a love for animals. Growing up watching nature documentaries and even being inspired by one of my teachers to love animals a bit more. In grade 5, we had to present to the class an animal & talk about it. I chose the Texas Horned Lizard.
And that’s what you picked, of all things.
Yup, and that’s kinda where it started.
That same year, my teacher ended up taking us to a private zoo in Ontario, which is now closed. It was probably the worst class trip. All of the animals were in awful conditions, all of my classmates were crying. My teacher felt so horrible for taking us there. Made me think of HOW I could help those animals.
We won’t call it a formal institutional background, but you have experience.
Basically I’m just very passionate about Herpetology.
I first began working with animals about 7 years ago. I mostly have experience caring for smaller mammals, I have volunteered in animal shelters, and I have done a wide array of pet sitting. I have even worked with the OSPCA to help shut down a negligent animal business. I then continued working with animals but chose to focus more with reptiles.
In the last 4 years, I have had the opportunity to work at an animal education facility in my city. Later on, I expanded my experience by working as an educator at a CAZA zoo. Overall, I focus on birthday parties, social gatherings and events. I have taught at schools using the animal science and biology curriculum. It’s been a really fun last few years!
After being an educator at the Zoo for more than a year, I then focused on being a tour guide. Eventually there was a Zookeeper position available and I stepped up to the role.
My dilemma is that I feel like a hypocrite in some ways with the two snakes I have. What purpose does it serve to keep this animal? What are you doing to enrich its life by keeping it as a pet? But here we are…
I think as owners we have a responsibility to ensure the best lives for our animals. Many people go into keeping reptiles but forget that they have very specific needs. Since these animals are not domesticated, I feel like the best solution is to try mimicking their natural habitat. I feel like people should do that regardless of the type of animal.
I often find people critiquing the reptile community and for very good reason. In this hobby, like I mentioned prior, people often put their animals’ needs second and their wants first. There’s a huge problem with hoarding. As long as that keeper is continuously keeping an open mind to learn BEYOND what they already know and are looking to improve; that’s all that matters.
We briefly chatted about some folks who aren’t recommended, for good reason, despite their popularity. If you’re wrong, you’re wrong. What about people you do recommend? I saw you also love Animals at Home. They were a huge influence on my cage configuration and figuring out lighting in Olivia’s damn cage.
People who only have experience in bad care, can only further spread bad care.
Lighting is probably the most confusing. Animals at Home, JTB, Reptiles & Research. I would also recommend joining the Facebook group “Reptile Lighting”.
Example, people who say the animals don’t need UVB, and it’s not beneficial but have never even offered it. You are spreading information and flat-out lying. All life needs the sun in some way. Or when they go so far as to say it’s harmful…
Obviously not all UVB requirements are the same for every animal. Something people aren’t even aware of is the Ferguson zone. It basically tells you how much UVB an animal requires in captivity. I can’t blame people for not knowing because sadly lots of reptile hobbyists spread misinformation online. Some bulbs don’t give the appropriate output for your UVB gradient within the animal’s Ferguson zone.
Lighting is probably the most confusing. Animals at Home, JTB, and another person that I can’t think of at the moment.
Oh, Lori Torrini– I saw the article you shared on Facebook. I’ve watched a lot of her snake training videos and she’s a big proponent for neurodiversity in animals. Snakes aren’t these blank, soulless beings. What are your thoughts about that?
She’s right. Snakes make choices for themselves. Snakes have their own personalities, and some species have more of a willingness to learn. Some get spooked by targets and it takes them a while. It’s a slow process.
People will look at snakes and think they’re dumb, but that’s not the case. You can do feeding enrichment. For example I do scent trails for my ball python where I won’t feed him the rodent right away. I will drag the rodent along things in his enclosure like rocks, and then drop it for him to find.
I’ve seen what you do with Dexter (Savannah monitor) and his toys. So spoiled.
Yes, very spoiled. He’s my baby. Monitor Species are extremely smart. I do egg cartons with crickets and superworms, I let Dexter dig his food out of the substrate. I eventually want to buy an interactive dog puzzle. Snakes are a little less interactive than lizards when it comes to that, so you have to be inventive. Some people will mimic nest raids with their Ball Pythons, where they offer multiple small rodents left in a small area for the snake to find. Preferably with a very small bird like chicks or quails.. In the wild, about 70% of the ball python’s diet is birds, such as Sterlings, African Doves, etc. Good to give them that variety and try to stimulate them. You want to promote natural instincts.
For us, we have a choice to take care of these animals while in captivity. They don’t have any other choice.
We’ve taken that choice away and kept them.
Exactly. I wouldn’t say that they love us, they tolerate us. They realize this person takes care of them, food shelter, etc.
I don’t have to worry about being eaten, I’m alright.
I think a lot of people, when they talk about taming, are thinking about wanting to domesticate reptiles.
I don’t think true domestication will ever happen.
I don’t really think we can ever do that with reptiles. They are wild animals, captive bred or not. Choice-based handling is the ideal way to go about handling any animal.
Even cats. A lot of people hate cates and will say, oh cats scratched me once, that cat was an asshole. No, no you were the asshole grabbing at my cat and he scratched you in the face because he had enough of your shit.
People love to blame animals but don’t look at their actions to see what caused the animal to behave in that way. There are accidents, food on your hands, etc. Dexter has done that to me once. Like a little baby staple, ow. But they don’t know any better. They see food. So accidents can happen.
People have this misunderstanding that the snake will confuse their hand with food if they feed them in their enclosure. But they need to use tongs and I have to remind them that their hand doesn’t really have enough heat coming from it for the snake to mistake food for your hand.
*beeping in the background*
Sorry my Tamagotchi needs to be fed. They’re so needy.
That and Furbies, I don’t miss their neediness.
Yes, they’re like babies.
For most of my animals, I will open the enclosure and sit with them. You have to give your animal the choice, the willingness to want to come to you.
The biggest thing I’ve seen a lot that disgusts me- It’s my pet, I can do what I want.
That’s an argument that’s been used for how long? And for people too…
These are still living creatures without a voice. They will show you with their behavior. Like if someone complains their snake is nose rubbing. Why is that happening? Let’s break down your enclosure. How small is it? Can your snake stretch fully? Is it consistently wall climbing? That’s their way of saying “hey, my enclosure isn’t big enough. I need you to do better for me because I can’t tell you what needs to be done.”
A snake that is cared for properly won’t be fearful, won’t have problems with shedding, etc. People will humanize the animals too much, like when a leopard gecko wags its tail. It’s not a dog; that’s caudal luring. It is the keeper’s responsibility to know what natural behavior should be for their animal. Some people don’t understand basic behaviors and the animal suffers.
Conclusion
I ended our interview by showing Indi around Olivia’s enclosure. I welcomed her suggestions on where I had room for improvement. I currently have a CHE in addition to a T5 6% UVB and a heat pad, and Indi recommended a PAR 30a halogen bulb. We also discussed that I definitely still need more climbing opportunities for her since she’s outgrown her little tree branch.
I appreciate Indi’s willingness to deviate from the mainstream and hold others, including popular pet influencers, accountable for promoting less than quality reptile care and abusing animals for likes. Please check her out on Instagram, TikTok, Ko-Fi and YouTube.
Important Takeaways:
Takeaway #1: We are choosing to keep these animals in captivity and are obligated to care for them properly. Conduct in-depth research beforehand, and know what’s appropriate for the species you want to keep.
Takeaway #2: Practice choice-based handling. A great introduction is Lori Torrini’s video: Choice-Based Handling: First Steps
Takeaway #3: Give them SPACE. For an in-depth discussion pertaining to appropriate sized enclosures for large snakes, check out this video from Animals at Home: Should we be Allowed to Keep BIG SNAKES?? Enclosure Size Questions…
